On September 14th, 2000, I responded to a Brahmin from Singapore who had earlier written to me,
First let’s focus on the
dating of Sanskrit and we will come to the other issues later. You have stated
that a language can be spoken but not be a written language. Yes this is true,
for example amongst tribals. They speak a certain language but it has no written
form, but later certain people like missionaries come and using a certain script
in existence will give a written form to the language of the tribals. This has
happened and missionaries have translated the Bible in this manner.
However, though this is
true, no literary standard or philosophical thought is seen in such languages
and the intellectual standard quite poor. So this argument does not prove
He wrote back on later on September 14th, 2000,
Are you insane?
How can you compare the
languages of the tribals with saunskrut? Tribal tongues are naturally developed
languages, using sounds of nature and other onomatopoeia. But saunskrut is a
language that was made, and if the date that I give is correct, then it was made
by the Gods.
Well, as about saunskrut,
let us talk about the language that jesus preached in, it had no script, but
then too it was profound. Can you give me a single literary reference that says
that Aham Brahmasmi is God is in me? And when I mean literary reference I mean,
I want it from a Saunskrut scholar, not from some pan eating maulavi who is
majorly pissed with brahmins because the masjid was broken.
Why do you run away from
the issue of aham brahmasmi? Any other christian would love to disprove a
blasphemer!!!! is it because your account is baseless?
I agree, my argument does
not prove that saunskrut is older than 150 ad, but it definitely proves that it
necessarily did not start in 150 ad, which means that you can no longer assume
that saunskrut is predated by jesus christ, you understand?
dont you get it? idiot? i
use your tribal example. just because a missionary wrote the bible in the tribal
language in 1894, lets assume, does it mean that this particular tribal language
did not exist prior to that? cant you comprehend even this? dont you understand
that your argument is supremely flawed? please take note of this and please give
it some thought. when you are arguing with a hindu brahman, you need high levels
of logic, that is why i suggested that you meet some professor in the department
of mathematics in the much exalted mit, that is if what you say is true, and you
are really in mit.
anyways, mail me again,
only if you have the answers otherwise i shall consider the battle won by the
brahmans aham brahmasmi,
Again there is no evidence
presented for Sanskrit. The vedic people were probably a Caananite type of
people (evidence Boghazkoy tablet, please see my page on Aryans)
and spoke some language. They were influenced by the Caananite worships and
their nomadic worship songs were later translated into Sanskrit. A simple glance
at the RgVeda reveals this and they have little philosophical content.
Let’s deal with Sanskrit
and then move on to the other issues.
On September 15th, 2000, OJ responded,
The rgveda has no
philosophical understanding? Good, then so doesnt the Genesis. It just talks
about how God created the world and blah blah blah...
But, then again, as you
have failed to comprehend, the Rgveda lays down the foundations for the
philosophical thought that is found in the upanishads. The
Upanishads are the most philosophical ancient literature that you can get your
A glance at Rgveda? How do
you glance at a book and tell whether it has philosophical thought or not?
Evidently, your judgements are biased. It is a shame. Do you atleast know
Saunskrut? Read the Brahmanaspati Sookta in the Rgveda, and you will instantly
realise that the profound philosophical concept of the sleeping Brahman found in
the Upanishads originates from here. I know what your goal is, to belittle the
great vedic culture and literature, so that Christianity can have its day in the
I have observed that the
younger the religion, the more insecure are the people. That is why islamics are
so insecure. Learn to take hindutva in a new light. If you look at the color red
from a green glass, it is not going to look red. Drop your christian inhibitions
and then see, how Sanatana Dharma frees you from yourself.
The goal of the human life is
to wake the Brahman.
The same day I responded,
You state that, “The
Upanishads are the most philosophical ancient literature that you can get your
hands on”. Well here is the crucial issue. The philosophy of the Upanishads
has nothing to do with the RgVeda. The RgVeda is nothing but nomadic songs sung
in worship. I have one of them on my site where the vedic people sing this
during a horse sacrifice.
These songs were later translated, and hence they have a crude flavor.
However, the Upanishads are written in good classical Sanskrit.
The Sanskrit language
developed around 2nd cAD due to the confusion in the languages of
India caused by the various conquests. We classify this as Prakrit. It was then
that scholars (mostly Dravidian) developed Sanskrit as a national link language.
The Dravidian emphasis is evidenced by the fact that Veda Vyasa, a Dravidian,
translated the nomadic songs for the vedic people.
You never cease to amuse
with with your insignificant knowledge of vedic literature. Why do you think
that the upanishads are connected to each of the samhitas in the vedas? why do
you have the aitreya upanishad, and the aitreya samhita in the Rkveda? Why do
you have the mandukya upanishad and also have a mandukya samhit in the yajur
veda? Why are all these names equivalent?
If what you say is true,
and saunskrut began only in 200 AD, then why do vyaasas writings in the
mahabharata date back to 5000 bc? Can you explain that? Planetary positions
given by vyaasa in the mahabharata have been determined to have existed only in
5561 BC on october 14th. Now, how do you explain this?
How can you account for
the fact that all major ritualism that came in later has its roots in the vedas?
And also the fact that there are brahmins who are specialists in their own
sutra? If they were nomads, why would there be specialisation? Why would there
be upto 16 different specialisations? Heck, even after 2000 years, the christian
church does not have that many specialiasations, and nor does the islamic code
experience. That thing that you have written about alberuni on your website, you
can use that to wipe bird-hit. The vedangas, that basically tell how the vedas
should be read and explain all the grammar and the pronunciations in the vedas
are as long as the english christian bible. Scribes are careless indeed! If you
talk to a chinese scribe in chinese, obviously he is not going to understand.
After living in Singapore for 3 years, I still cant make out minute difference
in Chinese pronunciation.
And if sanskrit came so
late, how come a single minority of people gather so much power? How was it
possible for them to write the humongous amount of literature that is the vedas,
and then dominate over the other people, who were not ever racially dissimilar,
in only 4-500 years?
Please do not give me lame
arguments. In your next mail, I expect answers and fresh arguments for all the
points that I have put forth in this mail. Otherwise,
it will be better that you should not mail me. I am not of the kind that likes
to drive the point home with a hammer. You must understand when your point has
fallen and graciously accept it. I
still suggest you call up some of your logician friends at MIT and confide in
them. I am sure they will not laugh at your naivity. Once you have consulted
them, then we shall have an interesting discussion, I am sure.
On September 16th, 2000, I responded,
I think that it is time to
teach you the principles of evaluating the reliability of any document. In the
world of literary scholars they use three tests to evaluate the reliability of
any literature. Kindly view this on the page titled “Reliability of the
Bible”. Hence with the evidence of Alberuni, none of your statements have any
value unless you can establish the reliability of the literature you are
By the way, if one were to
write a novel today, and fictitiously place the planets in a certain order, this
would not date my novel would it? My dear chap, you have been brainwashed by the
RSS/VHP, why don’t you seek the Truth for yourself?
On September 18th, 2000, OJ responded,
Do you seriously think
that you are the first christian I am talking to? I mean, come on, I lived for
17 years in Mumbai, I witnessed the riots. Missionaries
have talked to me, and tried to show me the ‘true path’. Do you think that
no one has ever tried to proselytise me?
Anyway, lets talk about
this first. When I challenged Alberuni’s account, all I had to say that he was
talking of the scribes, not of the priests. The brahmins did not write the vedas,
the Rshis did, and the brahmins just passed them on from generation to
generation. And the rendition of the sooktas from the Rveda has not changed in
time, or because of place. A Maharashtrian brahmin may speak english in a
different accent than a Tamil brahmin, but when it comes to reciting the
Purushasukta, the sukta that outlines the superiority of the brahmins, they both
sing it the same way, because saunskrut is a language in which there is no scope
for deviation. There is only one
correct answer. Nothing else. Why else do you think they call it the language of
And when saunskrut
such a perfect language where there is no scope for error, how can I rely on a
foreigners account on the unreliability of indian (vedic) scribes? If his
seemingly absurd sounding account is taken to be correct, that means that the
commercial system at that point of time must have been in comeplete chaos,
becuase people could not repeat what they had just written! It is known for a
fact that, the revenue collection system in India has been very efficient since
the times of Chandragupta Maurya, whose mentor, by the way, was a brahmin, and
who apparently predates your beloved jesus christ by atleast 3000 years and is
the author of the Arthashastra. Please,
take a break, I told you not answer the mail, if you did not answer the
questions that I had asked. The delay suggests that you did some amount of
research to find a plausible answer, which came to nothing, and hence you
resorted to this allegation that the mahabharata is a fabricated story.
Hence with the evidence of
none of your statements have any value unless you can establish
reliability of the literature you are quoting.
What Alberuni had
written was an account, so say you. And I say, what Vyaasa had written is also
an account. So how can you believe alberuni’s account and reject vyaasa’s
account as fabrication, just becuase it is older? Doesnt make sense, but then,
proselytising missionaries were never known to make sense.
the way, if one were to write a novel today, and fictitiously place the
in a certain order, this would not date my novel would it?
Well, so you are comparing
the mahabharata to a novel. Do you know that if it was a novel it would be the
largest damn novel in the history of mankind. Lineages
of 50 kings have been listed in the mahabharata. If it was just a novel, it
could have revolved around two, three, five kings and thats it. If you were
writing a novel, why would you note the positions of the planets? I mean, the
vedic people had a calendar of their own, and there was no need for Vyaasa to
dutifully note the positions of the planets, even to determine the date or time.
Why would any novelist do that? Because he was writing an account.
I havent been brainwashed
by the RSS/VHP (Why dont you decide which one you want to slander? The RSS or
the VHP. Both are very different organisations and have a different
agenda.)Though, i do not know whether any homosexual, paedophilic pastor has
brainwashed you or not.
Okay tell me this. Do you
know who the Zoroasters are? They are people from iran, fire worshippers like
the hindus. The Gods in Hindu mythology were called Devas, and the Villians were
called Asuras. Now in Zoroaster mythology, the Gods are called Ahuras and the
Demons are called Daevas. The Hindus call the mighty river of the Vedas the
Saraswati and the Zoroasters call it the Harasvati. The Zoroasters called the
Sindhu as Hindu, and that is how the people of the Sindhu valley were named. How
do you explain this similarity and discrepancy?
And the Iranian texts also
claim to be as old as the Vedas. Now, if your theory has to stand, you have to
fight two things, one, the Iranians, and two the Indians. I dont think there is
any hope for you, the battle is won, well almost. Retreat and accept defeat. A
true brahmin never loses in argumentative discussion, as the vedas are with him,
forever. And the vedas are the truth.
The Asur Mahadev of the
hindu myth is the Ahura Mazda of the Iranians. If one stands, so does the other,
brahmins not in the picture, though if the Ahura Mazda is the truth, so are the
vedas, and since the vedas are the truth, so is the purushasukta and since the
purushasukta is the truth, the brahmins are the mouth of the purusha and hold
the key to the universe.
I rest my case, atleast for
the time being.
BTW - I would like you to know that I am a distant relative of Shri Nathuram Godse, the martyr who loved Hindusthaan more than his life.
I responded later that day,
You have missed the point
again. The reliability of any document is established
by three tests:
Bibliographical Evidence test
Internal Evidence test
External Evidence test
To simply state that
Brahmins accurately transmitted the Vedas orally is okay for the simple and
illiterate, but not the educated. Hence dear chap you have to understand these
basic principles and liberate yourself from the deceptions of the RSS/VHP.
While worldwide academic research is getting more diversified and focussed, touching off a boom in area-specific encyclopedias, dictionaries and other reference books, why did the Human Resource Development Ministry under Dr. Murali Manohar Joshi scrap a five-year old project which would have produced India’s first “Dictionary of Social, Economic and Administrative Terms in Indian Inscriptions”?
Wake up man, brahminism as
propagated by the RSS/VHP is dead.
Kindly stay focused on
producing scholarly evidence rather than regurgitating the propaganda of the RSS/VHP
(the VHP is the religious wing of the RSS while the BJP is its political wing).
You state that,
“Chandragupta Maurya, whose mentor, by the way, was a Brahmin”. This is a
classic deception from the Puranas created during the Rajput period, however,
scholars clearly refute this since there is no mention of this so called
“mentor” by Megasthenes.
before Zoroaster (6th century BC) the Iranians had a polytheistic
religion and Mithra was the most important of their gods. However,
Zoroastrianism, a monotheistic faith, displaces the importance of Mithra.
Zoroaster’s teaching centered on Ahura Mazda, who is the highest god, creator
of heaven and earth and alone is worthy of worship. My dear fellow, the Gospel
that Zoraster preached, displaced the importance of your vedic deity. The vedic
people worshipped nature, that is the created rather than the creator.
So my dear chap, kindly
avoid jumping all over the place and focus on producing scholarly evidence for
Sanskrit and the reliability of literature.
OJ responded later that day,
If the brahmins came in
after Christ, why did Buddha reject hinduism so resoundingly? Also, why does the
Tholkappiyam, the ancient Tamil grammar text, which is dated at 200 bc, talk
about various schools or vedic pronunciation, like taittreyam etc. If you did
not know this, the Taittreya is a Samhita in the Yajurveda and is also a
Brahmana and is also a Upanishad. That means, that the Taittreya, which existed
at 200 BC (Tamil scholars have accurately dated the first Sangham and also the
writing of the Tholkappiam) I have consulted my tamil friend about this, please
double check this to ascertain his sources.
Well, so all said and
done, it simply means that since a Tamil grammar text talks about a foreign
language, there must have been quite some time for Saunskrut to influence Tamil.
That means that Saunskrut existed, but much before the compilation of the
Tholkappiam. Hence, we resounding arrive at the conclusion that vedic culture
had not only reached South India at that point og time, but also had pretty much
affected the nature of Tamil as a language. Also, you have to understnad that
Saunskrut was more of a classical language like Latin, and was more or less used
only by intellectuals, and the other people used Prakrut.
This clearly explains why
Ashokas message was not in Suanskrut, for he was targetting the masses, not the
intellectuals, who were opposed to their ideas anyway! This means that the
Yajurveda predates Christ, and if the Yajur veda predates Christ, the Rveda and
the Samaveda predate Christ by much more, and if the Rveda predates christ, that
means that Brahminism predates christ, because the word Brahman is first used in
the Rgveda. And if there were Brahmins before Christ, then the whole idea os
syncretising Hindutva from Christianity falls flat on its face.
Thank you very much.
Please argue with the
Tamil scholars if you want to. There is clear mention of the Namboodiri and the
Tanjavur Ayyar vedic pronunciations.
On September 19th, I responded,
The manner in which you
wildly wander all over the place shows the confusion within you. I trust that
you are genuinely seeking the truth rather than fanatically trying to defend
brahminism which is dead since the Truth has been exposed.
Let me set you straight on
some basic facts. Your ancestors, a nomadic group, are called the vedic people
basically due to their affinity to the vedic deities, which was a worship of
nature. The first evidence in India is seen in the Sunga Dynasty, and when one
studies the development of culture and religion in India in BC, it is seen that
the vedic people had negligible input. In AD also the vedic people had no
impact, and the religion of India was enriched by Christianity from the 1st
c AD. This was facilitated by the trade that existed between the Roman Empire
and South India. However, during the time of the Rajputs, the vedic people/Rajput
combine evolved into the caste system to control the political and religious
power, and during this time the vedic people usurped and corrupted the theistic
faith of the Hindus.
Regarding Ashoka, Ashoka
regulated sacrifice, then he should have written his edicts in Sanskrit if it
had existed since he wanted his writings to be read by all even in Greek and
Aramaic. Also finding Tamil words in Sanskrit is not a mystery since Sanskrit
derived words from all the earlier languages. Tamil literature is a key to
understanding the religion of the Hindus which is essentially Saivism and
Vaishnavism and the founding saints are all from the south.
Cheers OJ, Jesus loves you,
PS. By the way, Buddha
rejected sacrifice, and the Dravidian worship (seen from the Indus Valley) was
On September 20th, OJ emotionally responded,
Get your money back from
MIT. I don’t think it has done
you any good. My question was as follows: I capitalise in the hope that it will
enter your brain atleast now.
IF SAUNSKRUT CAME IN ONLY
IN 150AD, WHY DOES THE THOLKAPPIAM, A TAMIL GRAMMAR TEXT, CLEARLY PROVEN TO BE
BEFORE CHRIST, TALK ABOUT THE USAGE OF SAUNSKRUT WORDS IN TAMIL? WHY DOES IT
TALK ABOUT THE TATTRIYAM SCHOOL OF VEDIC LITERATEURE, WHILE TAITTRIYAM IS A
YAJURVEDIC SAMHITA, WHICH IS ONLY THE THIRD OLDEST VEDA?
The Brahmin’s Logical
 Tholkappiyam talks about
 taittryam is a yajurvedic
conclusion : the yajurveda is
as old as, if not older than, tholkappiyam.
 the was written around
about the tamil sangham, that is, 200 B.C.
Conclusion: The Yajurveda is
atleast as old as, if not older than 200 B.C.
 The yajurveda is only the
third oldest veda.
Conclusion: The rveda and the
samaveda are older than 200 b.c.
 The vedas are written in
Conclusion: Sanskrut is
atleast, if not older than 500 b.c. [Here
300 years have been added for the composition of the other two vedas, which are
as three times the size of the english bible. So i think it is a fair estimate
at the least.]
The above line of logiv
irrefutably proves that saunskrut was around when christ was strung up on the
cross. Well, what are you talking about christian beliefs enriching indian
religions? Hell, there werent more than 2% christians in india at any point of
time. This is what the archbishop of madras has said, go ask him. He said this
in defence of accusations of forceful proselytisation. now i dont know if you
are a baptist or a catholic, but anyway, you must be believing him more than you
So what i have proved to
you is that saunskrut was around when christ was killed. Well, it may have been
written down later, i agree, but it is definitely older.
The aryans were not a
race, idiot. Do not kiss white ass. The aryan invasion theory was proposed to
establish white domination on the world. It has been misproven again and over
again, so please do not qoute from it. I dont get it, how can a nomadic people,
who are not as sophisticated as the natives, and are 1/16th in
population to the natives, take over the natives without any help from the
Now, the british did take
over india when they were like 1/6th in numbers, but mind you, they
were technologically far superior and they also had indian regiments.
How possibly could have a
group of cowherding people come and over-ran people who were building
established cities? sounds incredible. The brahmins are as indigenous as the
rest of indians, and you cannot refute the fact. Genetic
analysis has failed to show any similarity between the brahmins and the
Please do not bullshit
like you are doing. I hope you consult a psychiatrist and a logician before you
talk to me in the future.
Jesus is dead, and dead men
tell no tales.
Later that day, I wrote,
Finally you have presented
something that seems like evidence.
“WHY DOES THE
THOLKAPPIAM, A TAMIL GRAMMAR TEXT, CLEARLY PROVEN TO BE BEFORE CHRIST, TALK
ABOUT THE USAGE OF SAUNSKRUT WORDS IN TAMIL? WHY DOES IT TALK ABOUT THE
TATTRIYAM SCHOOL OF VEDIC LITERATEURE, WHILE TAITTRIYAM IS A YAJURVEDIC SAMHITA,
WHICH IS ONLY THE THIRD OLDEST VEDA?”
Kindly furnish the
reference in the Tholkappiam where it talks about the Tattriyam School of Vedic
On September 21st, OJ wrote,
Even in ancient Tamil
literature such as the commentaries on the first grammar TolkAppiyam, the Vedic
schools of the region are referred to as pauzhiyam, taittiriyam, and talavakAram...
referring to the KauSItakins (pauzhiyam < pauSyam; pauSyam is a term
indicative of the KauSitaki RV branch)... talavakAra refers to the Jaiminiya
schoo as mentioned before.
They are all outlined in
great detail in Wayne Howard’s “Samaveda Chant” Yale University Press
Please refer, I guess the
MIT library must be having atleast some theology books....
Well, atleast you are
asking for evidence now. This means that given the proper evidence, you are
willing to listen. Good, you are not a missionary, after all, then.
I am deeply disappointed
in you. I asked you to furnish the reference in the Tholkappiam where it talks
about the Tattriyam School of Vedic literature, and instead you respond with the
propaganda of the RSS/VHP. If you feel that Wayne Howard can help you, then read
his book and come up with the necessary evidence.
Basically either put up or
Later the same day OJ responded,
Are you an idiot or
Why dont you look up in
the Yale university press yourself? Forget
that, I have fresh evidence that proves beyond doubt that the vedas are atleast
3300 years old. If you go to www.britannica.com and search, you will discover
that a tablet has been found in Central Asia bearing the names of Mitra, Varuna,
Indra and other chief Rvedic Gods.
This tablet has been
conservatively dated at 1300 BC. Dont
waste my time, dude, I dont have time to teach ignoramuses how to search for
data on the internet. I hope the search for truth doesnt take you to hell.
And OJ continued,
And tell me something,
before I declare that your brain is filled with maggots, how is the Yale
University press, RSS/VHP propaganda?
Take your filth out of my
mailbox. Learn to accept defeat with grace.
Thats what Jesus was all
about. He was a cool dude, you are not!
On September 22nd, 2000 I wrote,
evidence is referenced in my site (I trust that you understand). Ishwar
Sharan has rightly classified you,
“The RSS/VHP seem to be a bogey for so many self-righteous people. I don’t know why. They are for the most part a spineless lot who engage in sham battles and wave sticks at each other.”
Kindly do not waste my
time with your hand waving, however, I thank you for educating society on the
deceit of the RSS/VHP. I will put your responses on a separate page and let
Click Here for complete research in PDF format
|Salvation in the Major World Religions|
Development of Religion and Worship in India
|Aryans| |Avatar| |Bhagavad Gita| |Brahmin Samaj Circular| |Brahmana & Sramana| |Casteism in India's Society| |Cycle of Birth| |Distortion of History| |Early Buddhism| |Early Civilizations| |Evidence in the Indian Scripts| |Hinduism| |Indus Valley Civilization| |Islam| |Jainism| |Mahayana Buddhism| |Monism| |RSS Circular| |Significance of Sanskrit| |Syncretism| |Trade Relations of South India from 1st c. AD| |Varnashrama Dharma| |Vedic Religion, Vegetarian or Non-vegetarian?| |Vishwa Hindu Parishad| |Voices in India|
|View of a Certain Brahmin in Singapore| |Response to a Brahmin from Singapore|
Christian, the Bible and the Church
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|A Warning| |Apostasy in the Early Church| |Development of Papal Power| |New Age Movement| |Nun's Nightmare| |Reformation Movement| |Reliability of the Bible| |Restoration Movement| |Rise of Denominations| |Spiritual Mapping| |Spread of Denominations| |Staines Martyrdom| |Standing in the Gap| |The Early Church|
|Issues for Christians & Missions to Think About|
Violations of Human Rights
|A Pogrom| |Anjana Mishra's Story| |Brahmin Samaj Circular| |Communal Harmony| |Communalism //s (Coimbatore & Mumbai)| |Hindutva| |Hindutva Politics| |Nun's Nightmare| |PUCL Report| |RSS Circular| |Signs of our Times| |Staines Martyrdom| |Taproot of Racism| |Terrorism in Tamil Nadu| |Vishwa Hindu Parishad| |VHP and Charity| |Web of Terror| |Voices in India|
Is Conversion Violence on Hindus and Hinduism?
Mr. M. V. Kamath's Challenge in Times of India
Can missionaries work in a place like the Brahmin-dominated ward of Mylapore in Chennai?
Strategies of Communal Forces in India
|Vedic Valley Theory| |Holes in Vedic Valley Theory|
|Conversion is Violence on Hindus| |Religion by free choice|
|Is the Pope a Hindu?|
|Horseplay at Harappa|
Bible Prophecy Concerning America?
|Is America, the Great Whore in Revelation?|
|Stand in the Gap| |Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare|
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|View of a Certain Brahmin in Singapore| |Response to a Brahmin from Singapore|
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