Visitor's Responses

Jesus - 11/04/98 01:14:19

According to the Aryan Invasion Theory-which is the basis of interpreting the ancient history of India found in most books today-the Vedic people were barbarian hordes who overran North India after 1500 BC. They destroyed the more advanced Dravidian civil zation of the subcontinent, which is evidenced by the ruins of the Harappan or Indus civilization. This theory is diametri-cally opposed to the traditional Hindu view of Vedic culture which regards it as indigenous from India, arising on the Sarasvati riv r west of Delhi, and sees it as a culture of great spirituality ruled by seers and yogis. The invasion idea was invented by nineteenth century European thinkers, and was mixed with colonial and missionary policies. It was always questioned by Hindus, including great thinkers like Sri Aurobindo, Vivekananda. B.G.Tilak and Dayananda Sarasvati. I had no basis in the extensive. Vedic and Puranic literature which speaks of no outside origin for the Vedic people. Yet owing to the European intellectual domination of the world, which followed its political domination, this idea became regarded as the ruth. It reduced the ancient history of India to a brutal invasion and coverup, with the perpetrators given the mantle of sages by the ignorance of later generations! Recently, however, this idea has been challenged again by a number of scholars east and west. Its opponents are becoming increasingly more numerous, raising more and more objections, showing new astronomical, archeological, skeletal and geological evidenc in favor of dismissing the theory. Meanwhile there has been no substantial evidence to support the theory apart from the uncertainty of linguistic speculation. Everything that has been proposed to support it has been found not to have really occurred or o have other causes. For example, the Harappan cities were found to have been abandoned by climate and river changes, not destroyed by outside invaders, and the horse, thought to have been first brought by the invading Aryans has been now been found to have existed already in many Harappan sites. Contrary to the theory, the picture has emerged of an indigenous and organic development of civilization in ancient India going back to 6500 BC (the Mehrgarh site in Pakistan) with no break in continuity and no significant outside inv sions or migrations. Indeed it appears that in the coming years the Aryan invasion theory will soon be discarded all over the world. Recently the monthly newspaper Hinduism Today (Dec. 1994) has come out against the Aryan Invasion Theory in its Time Line edition. Hinduism Today is largest circulating Hindu monthly in the world Hinduism Today is published in the United States, though di tributed world wide, including in India. In defense of the theory, however, people point to the fact that it is still found in textbooks throughout the world, including in India, so that such new data against it does not appear to have been accepted. Opponents of the theory have claimed that muc of the data disproving it is new and has not yet had time to reach textbooks, which usually represent information some decades old. Yet now the demise of the Aryan invasion theory is entering into the textbooks. It is strange to see, however, that the first major university textbook to seriously question the theory has not come from India but from the West. In his recent edition of Survey of Hinduism (Sunny, State University of New York Press 1994), Professor Kla s Klostermaier has noted important objections to this theory. He suggests that the weight of evidence is against it and that it should no longer be regarded as the main model of interpreting ancient India. Survey of Hinduism is perhaps the main textbook u ed in North America for university courses on the study of Hinduism. Klostermaier is not a Hindu, in fact he is a Catholic priest. He is not speaking relative to any Hindu agenda but as a scholar and academician. Though as a teacher of Hinduism he appears to have some sympathy with the tradition, he cannot be regarded as p omoting Hinduism. He is critical of Hindu beliefs and practices in different parts of his book. But the Aryan Invasion Theory is something he questions on the evidence. He states (pg.34): "Both the spatial and the temporal extent of the Indus civilization has expanded dramatically on the basis of new excavations and the dating of the Vedic age as well as the theory of an Aryan invasion of India has been shaken. We are re uired to completely reconsider not only certain aspects of Vedic India, but the entire relationship between Indus civilization and Vedic culture." Later he adds (pg.38): "The certainty seems to be growing that the Indus civilization was carried by the Ved c Indians, who were not invaders from Southern Russia but indigenous for an unknown period of time in the lower Central Himalayan regions." He questions the difference proposed between Vedic and Indus culture and shows a continuity or possibility of identity between the two. He mentions the data on the Sarasvati river, which according to scientific studies dried up around 1900 BC. As the Sara vati is the main river of the Vedas, he states (pg.36): "If, As Muller suggested, the Aryan invasion took place around 1500 BC, it does not make much sense to locate villages along the banks of the by then dried up Sarasvati." He notes skeletal information that shows a continuity of the same racial and ethnic groups in ancient India as today, thus refuting the idea that India was populated by an outside race in the ancient period. He notes the discovery of the ancient city of D araka in Gujarat, the reputed city of Krishna, and its date to 1500 BC. He notes astronomical evidence in Vedic texts that suggest early calendars contemporaneous with the Indus era. He has been most influenced by the work of Subhash Kak and quotes him in several places, including Kak's decoding of what he calls "the astronomical code of the Vedas." He also mentions from my work on the subject, as presented in my book Gods, Sages and ings: Vedic Secrets of Ancient Civilization. He quote one long passage of Kak (pg.38): by the middle of the fourth millennium BCE the Indo-European and the Dravidian words had already interacted and met across Northwest India and the plateau of Iran....Th Indo-European world at this time must already have stretched from Europe to North India and just below it lay the Dravidian people. The interaction for centuries between these two powerful peoples gave rise to the Vedic language, which though structurall Indo-European, was greatly influenced by the Dravidian language. The Vedic civilization of these two peoples as was the Harappan civilization. These arguments represent the new data coming from various archaeologists and Vedic scholars. They do not come from Klostermaier, but clearly they are strong enough to produce a case that ever Western academicians now have to listen to. They have caused Klostermaier to question the whole Western reading of the Vedas, "We can be certain that these first efforts to get away from a historicist-humanistic Western reading of the Vedas will be followed by more detailed analyses and probably quite startling discovers about the character and content of Vedic civilization. (pg. 38)" The same arguments have been raised in India by many writers, archaeologists, scientists and spiritual leaders, but still have not yet entered into the textbooks. Now the question arises, if textbooks in the West can be changed in regard to the Aryan Invasion Theory, why cannot textbooks in India be changed, particularly as the theory has frequently been used to discredit the culture of India and the Hindu religion? We would expect that textbooks in India would be the first to change on this matter and not have to follow those in the West. Surely if new data arose in a Western country and literature, the entire country would be quick to proclaim the new information. Unfortunately India does not appear to want to acknowledge its past, particularly if it gives credence to its spiritual tradition which a number of groups oppose. They Aryan Invasion Theory has become a matter of political importance in the country, and p litics is always willing to twist things for its electoral needs. The British rulers of colonial India, Marxists scholars and politicians, Dravidian nationalists, Caste Reform advocates of various types, Christian missionaries and Muslim groups have used the invasion theory to discredit or divide Hindu culture, particularly to attack its Brahmanical side. Even today one can see "Brahmins go home (to Central Asia)," painted on walls as political propaganda in south India. Dravidians, the lower castes, and Muslims have all at times identified themselves with the pre-Aryan ndigenous people of India whom the invading Aryans were supposed to have conquered and enslaved. Clearly several groups have part of their identify invested in the invasion theory that would be disconcerting to lose. On the other hand, many of the founder of the Indian independence movement like Tilak and Aurobindo wrote against the theory. It appeared important to them in restoring Indian identity to reestablish the credibility of ancient Indian civilization and its continuity. Yet whatever one's social views, history should not be subject to them but should be examined according to the facts. Now the facts severely question the Aryan Invasion Theory, so that it should no longer be portrayed as the truth. The events in a country today should not be made hostage to its history of over four thousand years ago, whatever it might have been. Only in India does this occur. Yet India must now look at its ancient history anew, in the light of the collapse of the invasion theory. A greate continuity to Indian civilization is revealed that hopefully can bring more wholeness to the country. If the Aryan Invasion Theory is not true it means that India is the oldest most continuous civilization in the world, with the oldest and most extensive literature (the Vedas), and is therefore one of the great centers of world civilization rivalling thos of Egypt and Babylonia. It is a heritage to be proud of, however one may wish to interpret it.

This is the polished face of brahminism today. Till the discovery of the Indus Valley in 1920 AD, brahminism was quite happy with this thought since it projected Dravidian India as a barbaric uncivilized race and they, the Aryans, brought civilization and culture to India. However, when the Indus Valley was discovered in 1920, it exposed the deception, and now brahminism's new strategy is to "prove" that the "vedic people" birthed the Indus valley. Recently there was an article in the The Week magazine (dated July 26th, 1998) on this titled, "Looking beyond Indus Valley". I responded and my article titled, "Holes in Vedic Valley Theory" was published in The Week dated August 9th, 1998. The whole thesis above is based on "the oldest and most extensive literature (the Vedas)", and I have clearly shown based on the scripts and epigraphic evidences that they were written rather late. Hence, the whole thesis falls apart.

 Jesus - 11/04/98 01:03:02

Your page is such a load of shit!! I had fun going through your stuff. For all the things that you said remember that 1) Hinduism was the only religion, when your Only son of the God was playing naked, when he was a kid! 2) It is known as Sanatana Dharma and will remain so! 3) Thousands of Christians are falling into Hinduism in California. They are not Dums ass like you!! 4) RSS, BJP and VHP are watching you. Just take care!

Evidence please. As for the RSS/VHP/BJP, Ishwar Sharan described them well,
The RSS/VHP seem to be a bogey for so many self-righteous people. I don't know why. They are for the most part a spineless lot who engage in sham battles and wave sticks at each other. I have never had anything to do with them.
Most sensible people do the same.

 aryan - 10/26/98 19:14:46

What bull. Are you even an educated person let alone an authority on this.

The question is are you capable of processing the TRUTH rather than living in superstition and myth? By the way, aryan is a mythical race and the term is synonymous with RACISM.

Satan does not and cannot exist. The amplification of Satan is mainly a tool used by the missionaries to use the "Carrot and the stick method" to convert. The carrot is the salvation and the stick is the Satan.

1. Since God is all powerful then a entity like Satan cannot exist.

2. If their is no supernatural entity like God itself, then also Satan cannot exist since it is a supernatural entity.

Note that a Hinduism is democracy of relegious beliefs, everybody is free to search for the meaning of God in his own way (Though certain ways are recommended) , you can choose to not believe in the existense of God itself (be a Atheist) and still be a Hindu !

Hence to convert a learned Hindu like myself either you have to physically demonstrate the existence of your interpretation of God, dont bother pointing to the Bible as the absolute word of God.

In you web site you make a big deal about exploitation by Brahamins (FYI I am a lower caste, you can verify this by my second name). We humbly acknowledge these shortcomings of our society,this is a social not a religious issue but caste is misinterpreted and exploited by Islamic and Christian missionaries. The way the White christians have enslaved and exploited millions of people of African race(Not to mention the American Indians) over the centuries, should I blame this on the Bible ?

What were the Crusades and the Jihads, were these two related religions showering love at each other then ? Thousands died for foolishly fighting over something they know nothing about. Dont delude yourselves, first fix your own house in order OK ?

You talk about Bal Thackeray assuming anybody who resists the Missionary is a Bal Thackeray fan, for your information he is considered a part of the lunatic fringe by a vast majority of Hindus. In a simmillar way should I assume all Christians are like the KKK and other lunatic Christian groups ? The KKK typically consider themselves Hardcore Christians.

Hope this letter has been little enlightning. Can you please post it on your website.

Rahul Saxena

The logic regarding God & Satan is verysimplistic. You have used only one characteristics of God, does He possess only one? God is not only all powerful, but He is also loving, righteous and just even to the wicked. That is why He had to allow His only son, Jesus Christ to die on the cross and then raise Him up on the third day to destroy the hold of sin on man. This is seen in the Vinayagar concept in Hindu Religion. However, you seem to have deviated from your theistic Hindu Religion roots into atheism. Also I think that you have your logic mixed up in the second statement, please check with your guru.

The term Hinduism is a tag given by the Europeans, I am surprised to see you accept that. The religion of the Hindus, namely Saivism & Vaishnavism is a theistic religion and atheism (introduced by adi Sanakra) has no place in it. You have deviated from your roots into monism. How illogical to think that theism & atheism can coexist in the same religion.

Regarding your community, what made you a low caste? Who told you that you were one? Do you feel that you have intellectual shortcomings when compared to a Brahmin? The BIBLE is the only STANDARD for mankind and man needs a STANDARD as otherwise he will fall into error like yourself.

Unfortunately your letter enlightens us on how some have become pawns in the hands of the so called upper castes. Also kindly read my pages on ‘Mark of a Christian' & ‘Church History’.

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